American Monsters: Frank Lindsay with Anson Maddocks

0:00 Speaker 1: Warning.

0:00 Speaker 2: Kind of Murdery contains adult themes, explicit language, and descriptions

0:04 Speaker 2: of violence. It is not suitable for anyone, and we

0:08 Speaker 2: recommend you stop listening.

0:09 Speaker 1: Now. I'm Zevan Odelberg and this is kind of murdery. Well,

0:23 Speaker 1: it's an exciting session for me today, guys, it's an

0:26 Speaker 1: exciting day because I am back with my good friend

0:29 Speaker 1: Anson Mattox for another episode of Hydra Double Headed hosted. Hmmm,

0:35 Speaker 1: kind of murdery. Hey, answer, how you doing today?

0:38 Speaker 2: I'm good.

0:41 Speaker 1: I'm not always as clever as I think, and I

0:43 Speaker 1: realized that in real time just now. So today I've

0:48 Speaker 1: got a story to tell called the Fry cook Killer,

0:52 Speaker 1: and I should mention in the interest of fairness and

0:56 Speaker 1: proper procedure, that I found this story in a great

0:59 Speaker 1: article on a website called on bunker Hill dot org

1:03 Speaker 1: and it's called, indeed the Fry cook Killer. And I

1:06 Speaker 1: tried to come up with an even more fun name

1:08 Speaker 1: for it, but you know, that's pretty evocative as it is,

1:11 Speaker 1: so I decided to go ahead and just just stick

1:14 Speaker 1: with it. So thank you on bunker Hill dot org

1:16 Speaker 1: for this Seattle murder story that I will be telling

1:21 Speaker 1: and to Anson and to you today. So, Anson, one

1:24 Speaker 1: of the reasons I wanted to pick Seattle is I

1:27 Speaker 1: believe that's a place that you lived for a for

1:29 Speaker 1: a good portion of your life.

1:31 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, quite a bit of it actually, from the

1:34 Speaker 2: time I am was twenty until wow, I think it

1:38 Speaker 2: like six years ago I moved out of Seattle.

1:42 Speaker 1: So you know, since you're like one hundred and fifty

1:45 Speaker 1: years old now, gotten a long time.

1:47 Speaker 2: I actually have no idea, I am.

1:51 Speaker 1: It is a state of mind anyway, right, Yeah, that's

1:54 Speaker 1: what That's what we tell ourselves is the as the

1:57 Speaker 1: sand keeps falling and the clock keeps ticking, right, So yeah,

2:01 Speaker 1: I imagine all those years in Seattle you probably had

2:04 Speaker 1: a kind of murdery experience or two, did you not.

2:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, I stumbled into a few things.

2:11 Speaker 1: There you go. That's quite a tease where I'm not

2:14 Speaker 1: going to let Antson tell his story now, but you

2:16 Speaker 1: will be hearing a kind of murdery personal story from

2:19 Speaker 1: the legendary Anthon Maddox later in the show. And uh,

2:23 Speaker 1: I think and I will tease this as well. It

2:25 Speaker 1: also features your your very good friend Mark to Dean,

2:28 Speaker 1: does it not the story we're going to hear it

2:30 Speaker 1: is awesome. So the kind of murdery high jinks of Anson,

2:33 Speaker 1: Maddox and Mark to Dean are coming up. But sadly

2:36 Speaker 1: for all of you, you have to listen to the

2:39 Speaker 1: story that I've brought first. So hang in there and

2:42 Speaker 1: uh we'll get to Anson, I.

2:43 Speaker 2: Promise I'm looking forward to. All right, all.

2:46 Speaker 1: Right, answered, are you ready for the story of Frank

2:49 Speaker 1: Lindsay the Fry Cook Killer.

2:51 Speaker 2: Let's hear awesome?

2:52 Speaker 1: All right? Everyone, now please join me and Anson as

2:56 Speaker 1: we uncover what truths we can and solve what mysteries

3:00 Speaker 1: we may kind of murderies. The Fry Cook Killer starts now.

3:16 Speaker 1: It was a quiet February day in Seattle, Washington in

3:19 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty when Frank Lindsay, who had been arguing with

3:22 Speaker 1: his wife, his wife Aubrey, ended that argument by bashing

3:26 Speaker 1: her over the head with a hammer. Then, because that

3:29 Speaker 1: didn't seem permanent enough, he slashed her throat, sewed her

3:33 Speaker 1: body up in a burlap bag, and buried her behind

3:35 Speaker 1: the barn on the property. So that's how our story begins,

3:38 Speaker 1: with a brutal murdering of a wife by an apparently

3:42 Speaker 1: less than loving husband. The apparently is probably not necessary.

3:46 Speaker 1: Probably could just say by a less than loving husband.

3:51 Speaker 2: Would love in a way that we just don't understand.

3:54 Speaker 1: I suppose, so, I suppose so when they say Satan

3:57 Speaker 1: was the first humanist, he just wants you to do

4:00 Speaker 1: which you want and be happy. Right, So maybe it's

4:02 Speaker 1: maybe it's sort of that kind of love minus that

4:04 Speaker 1: doing what you want and happiness and inserting just dying horribly.

4:09 Speaker 2: Doctor Frankenstein. Kind of yeahavor.

4:12 Speaker 1: Indeed, indeed, so as anyone who has spent any amount

4:15 Speaker 1: of significant time in Seattle knows, it rains a lot,

4:19 Speaker 1: and in this story, metaphorically, when it rains, it pours.

4:22 Speaker 1: Because after murdering his wife, immediately after Frank Lindsay goes

4:26 Speaker 1: and he grabs his twelve year old there twelve year

4:29 Speaker 1: old foster daughter, a girl named Pearl Grant, and a

4:32 Speaker 1: few hastily packed bags, and he flees his home and

4:35 Speaker 1: he high tails itself. Now, he would later say that

4:37 Speaker 1: he took the girl with him because he thought that

4:40 Speaker 1: traveling with a child would give him a better cover story.

4:43 Speaker 1: But the thing about traveling with a child is you're

4:47 Speaker 1: traveling with a child. They have needs, They are not

4:51 Speaker 1: so quiet they tend to live more publicly than an

4:54 Speaker 1: outlaw on the lamp, and he quickly realized that being

4:57 Speaker 1: on the lamb with Pearl was a bad idea. So

5:00 Speaker 1: what's he do? Comes up with a solution and he

5:03 Speaker 1: abandons her in a rooming house in Oakland. Guy's not

5:06 Speaker 1: bucking for father of the Year here, that's for sure.

5:09 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm yeah, I don't know much about kids.

5:14 Speaker 1: So Frank eventually lands in Napa and you know, here,

5:17 Speaker 1: here's where the story takes a little bit of a

5:19 Speaker 1: turn for the even creepier. He lands in Napa, California,

5:22 Speaker 1: where he befriends the parents of an eleven year old

5:25 Speaker 1: girl named Beatrice Delamore. He picks fruit alongside the family

5:29 Speaker 1: for several days, and eventually, and boy, I'm not sure

5:33 Speaker 1: how he pulled this off, but he must have been

5:35 Speaker 1: a magnetic man. Eventually he convinces the couple to turn

5:39 Speaker 1: their daughter, Beatrice over to him, saying that he knows

5:43 Speaker 1: a woman with money who could provide Beatrice with everything

5:46 Speaker 1: that she lacked as the child of itinerant laborers fruit pickers.

5:50 Speaker 2: Now, this is in the nineteen thirties, nineteen thirty yes,

5:54 Speaker 2: oh yeah, this makes sense.

5:55 Speaker 1: I suppose it does. But on the same hand I

5:59 Speaker 1: find it somewhat baffling that a single man could sort

6:03 Speaker 1: of show up, get off the bus, help you pick

6:06 Speaker 1: peaches for a couple days, and then say, why did

6:08 Speaker 1: you give you your daughter? I promise she'll have a

6:10 Speaker 1: better life. You know, it's all kinds of people have kids,

6:13 Speaker 1: so you never know that's true. And I mean, there

6:15 Speaker 1: were those parents who allowed their children to stay over

6:19 Speaker 1: at Michael Jackson's house and sleep in his bed. Although

6:22 Speaker 1: Michael being the biggest star in the world, that is

6:26 Speaker 1: somewhat more understandable, I think than just turning your daughter

6:29 Speaker 1: over to your fellow itinerant fruit picker for all you know.

6:32 Speaker 1: But hey, like you said, different strokes for different folks,

6:35 Speaker 1: all kinds of parents in the world. So, of course,

6:40 Speaker 1: spoiler alert, he was lying about knowing a wealthy woman

6:45 Speaker 1: who could give Beatrice a great life. What he actually

6:48 Speaker 1: does is he kidnaps her and takes her to Los Angeles,

6:51 Speaker 1: where he checks into the hotel Cecil for a few nights.

6:55 Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody listening who maybe is a

6:58 Speaker 1: fan of the paranormal or the kind to murdery has

7:01 Speaker 1: heard of the Hotel Cecil, But it's no surprise. In

7:05 Speaker 1: some ways, it seems like it's almost was a sure

7:07 Speaker 1: thing that Frank Lindsay was going to stay at the

7:10 Speaker 1: Hotel Cecil. The fact that he is a murderer means

7:13 Speaker 1: that he almost had to stay at the Hotel Cecil.

7:15 Speaker 1: You see, the Hotel Cecil, which is currently closed for

7:18 Speaker 1: renovations but still standing, is almost certainly haunted. In fact,

7:22 Speaker 1: it may be something close to being the real life

7:24 Speaker 1: Overlook Hotel. Are you familiar with the Overlook Hotel and.

7:28 Speaker 2: The Shining indeed?

7:30 Speaker 1: Indeed, man, what a good movie?

7:31 Speaker 2: What a good movie?

7:33 Speaker 1: So the Overlook Hotel is the lodge from the Shining

7:36 Speaker 1: which spoiler alert if you haven't seen The Shining, skip

7:40 Speaker 1: Ford ten seconds. But it's haunted by ravenous ghosts who

7:43 Speaker 1: drive people to commit murder the Overlook. Now, as tempting

7:46 Speaker 1: as it is to get sidetracked and tell you all

7:50 Speaker 1: about why the Hotel Cecil is psychically and spiritually fucked,

7:54 Speaker 1: it's probably better that we stay on track and continue

7:57 Speaker 1: with the story of the fry Cook Killer. We will

7:59 Speaker 1: say of the Hotel Cecil for a future episode, I

8:02 Speaker 1: will give you just a nibble or two on the

8:05 Speaker 1: Hotel Cecil though, because you're probably dying for it. There's

8:09 Speaker 1: any number of murders and suicides that occurred there. It

8:12 Speaker 1: was the regular haunt of Richard Ramirez, the nightstalker. The

8:17 Speaker 1: Black Dahlia was known to have been seen drinking there

8:20 Speaker 1: right before she was killed. There was a sweet old

8:23 Speaker 1: woman who was known for feeding the pigeons in MacArthur

8:27 Speaker 1: Park who in her sixties was suddenly murdered in the

8:31 Speaker 1: Hotel Cecil. There was a girl as recently as twenty

8:35 Speaker 1: thirteen who was bizarrely found dead after disappearing for days,

8:40 Speaker 1: drowned in the water tanks of the Hotel Cecil. And

8:44 Speaker 1: there are any number of other just awful things that

8:46 Speaker 1: happened there. And I will, as I said, I'm going

8:48 Speaker 1: to save the real story of the Hotel Cecil for

8:50 Speaker 1: a different episode because, frankly, we could spend the rest

8:54 Speaker 1: of this episode talking about it. It is Los Angeles'

8:58 Speaker 1: Overlook hotel. Let's get to the story of frank and currently. Anyway,

9:03 Speaker 1: Beatrice Delamore, have you ever encountered any haunted hotels in

9:08 Speaker 1: your ramblings? In case my wife and I are watching

9:10 Speaker 1: the Bridgerton Show, The Queen Charlotte Bridgerton Show, and there's

9:14 Speaker 1: this lord who loves to walk around his wilderness estate

9:18 Speaker 1: and he refers to his walks as rambles. So I

9:21 Speaker 1: just wanted to clarify that what I asked you if

9:23 Speaker 1: you'd ever encountered haunted properties in your ramblings. I didn't

9:27 Speaker 1: mean that you tend to ramble when you speak, but

9:29 Speaker 1: rather on your journeys through the world, have you ever

9:33 Speaker 1: encountered any haunted spaces? Anson, Well, first.

9:36 Speaker 2: Let me commend you on knowing that I'm always set

9:39 Speaker 2: like a trap, waiting to go off on the slightest

9:42 Speaker 2: possibility of being a.

9:46 Speaker 1: You're actually the opposite of that. I just didn't want

9:49 Speaker 1: to sound like a dick to the listeners.

9:53 Speaker 2: Actually, it's kind of it's disappointing. I think that the

9:58 Speaker 2: kind of work that I do, you know, doesn't give

10:02 Speaker 2: me better access to paranormal things. I Extreme coincidences, just

10:08 Speaker 2: bizarre coincidences is probably the closest I ever closest I

10:11 Speaker 2: ever come to experiencing something that seems a little beyond normal.

10:16 Speaker 2: So I've never experienced a ghost or a haunting, you know, element.

10:22 Speaker 1: But you have experienced maybe a glitch in the matrix.

10:26 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, do tail detail. I must know, I must know.

10:30 Speaker 2: This one's strange. I'll try to do it quickly. Here

10:33 Speaker 2: I was. This is back when cell phones were just new,

10:37 Speaker 2: you know, not many people had them. I had a

10:40 Speaker 2: cell phone and a pager. And these are.

10:42 Speaker 1: Drug dealing days, right sure, yeah, yeah.

10:45 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. But because you don't necessarily want to pay

10:49 Speaker 2: for every call that comes into your phone, if you

10:53 Speaker 2: only give people the number of your pager, then you

10:55 Speaker 2: can call them back if you feel like it's worth it, right, right,

10:58 Speaker 2: So I get a while I'm at this Chinese restaurant

11:02 Speaker 2: on Broadway in Seattle, and I don't recognize the number,

11:06 Speaker 2: but I call it back while I'm sitting there, and

11:09 Speaker 2: the person picks up and they say hello. And I

11:12 Speaker 2: noticed that on the other side of the counter, you know,

11:15 Speaker 2: the kitchen's right there, there's a cook in there who's

11:19 Speaker 2: on his phone. And I could hear it in my

11:21 Speaker 2: other ear him say hello, And I was like, that's

11:23 Speaker 2: a weird coincidence. And I said, you called me, and

11:29 Speaker 2: he said, he goes, yeah, sorry, wrong number. I go, okay,

11:33 Speaker 2: and I hang up, and I see this guy in

11:37 Speaker 2: the kitchen hang up, and I'm like, oh, no way.

11:40 Speaker 2: So I get up and I go over to the counter,

11:43 Speaker 2: you know that has the sneeze guard, and I excuse me,

11:46 Speaker 2: excuse me? Did you just did you just dial? You

11:50 Speaker 2: know that? I told him my number and I showed

11:52 Speaker 2: him on my pager that it had his number, and

11:55 Speaker 2: he goes, yes, sorry, that's fine. Is that kind of weird?

12:01 Speaker 1: This is a what are the odds that you would

12:03 Speaker 1: happen to be in the exact place. By the way,

12:07 Speaker 1: it's not lost on me that you just told you're

12:09 Speaker 1: telling a story about a bizarre occurrence featuring none other

12:12 Speaker 1: than a fry cook. Well done, sir, That is some

12:15 Speaker 1: narrative synergy right there.

12:17 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, if you're not talking about French fries. Yeah.

12:21 Speaker 1: So so then what.

12:24 Speaker 2: I tried to I said, don't you think that's really

12:27 Speaker 2: strange that you died a wrong number? But the person

12:31 Speaker 2: that picked up the phone was sitting in the same

12:34 Speaker 2: room basically, and he said, yes, sorry, wrong number.

12:42 Speaker 1: That is weird. Yeah, that's very szarre. For a second,

12:47 Speaker 1: I thought maybe that the signals were crossed or some such,

12:50 Speaker 1: but obviously not, because you showed him the number. And

12:52 Speaker 1: he was like, yes, that is the wrong number that

12:54 Speaker 1: I dialed. Wow, Wow, remarkable, remarkable. So let's talk about

13:00 Speaker 1: about Frank Lindsay. What did he do after he stayed

13:02 Speaker 1: at the hotel cecil Well, He then went and sought

13:05 Speaker 1: refuge at a rooming house in Bunker Hill, which is

13:08 Speaker 1: another neighborhood in downtown Los Angeles. Representing himself as an

13:13 Speaker 1: r F Williams, Mister r F Williams, he told people

13:16 Speaker 1: that Beatrice was his daughter. He then kept the girl

13:19 Speaker 1: for two weeks in the rooming house and then decided

13:22 Speaker 1: to put her back on a bus to Napa. I mean,

13:25 Speaker 1: I think in some ways, certainly the nineteen thirties were

13:28 Speaker 1: a simpler time, and maybe this shouldn't be surprising given

13:31 Speaker 1: that Lindsay is a murderer, but he seems to have

13:35 Speaker 1: no hesitation about just sort of abandoning young girls wherever

13:39 Speaker 1: Oakland boarding houses, throwing him on the bus to go

13:42 Speaker 1: from LA to Napa. I mean, I think no one

13:45 Speaker 1: would consider murderer or not would probably not consider doing

13:49 Speaker 1: that today.

13:50 Speaker 2: So it's just another one of his bullshit human attributes

13:53 Speaker 2: that make some even worse person.

13:55 Speaker 1: Yeah on your red flag checklist. Of how to identify

13:59 Speaker 1: a terrible guy. Willing nelly, abandoning eleven year old girls,

14:04 Speaker 1: murdering your wife with a claw hammer. Those are red flags.

14:07 Speaker 1: You want to leave those out of your dating profile.

14:09 Speaker 1: But upon her return home, Beatrice was able to provide

14:13 Speaker 1: information about Frank, but the elusive spouse slaughterer continued to

14:18 Speaker 1: evade capture.

14:19 Speaker 2: So they were after him. I mean, they knew he

14:22 Speaker 2: killed his wife.

14:23 Speaker 1: At this point, they were at the very least looking

14:26 Speaker 1: for him, because yes, they had discovered that the wife

14:30 Speaker 1: was dead. Okay, And to your point to your question,

14:34 Speaker 1: Audrey's brutal slaying and speculation about Frank's whereabouts were big

14:38 Speaker 1: news up and down the West Coast. However, interestingly, it

14:42 Speaker 1: wouldn't be professional law enforcement officers who would eventually find him,

14:46 Speaker 1: but rather an amateur detective. Perhaps we call him America

14:51 Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes, although that may be a little bit rich,

14:54 Speaker 1: But an amateur detective named William Sanborn would be the

14:58 Speaker 1: one to finally track down Frank Lindsay. There's something about

15:02 Speaker 1: these old names that just I don't know, it makes

15:04 Speaker 1: everything more believable to me. It's like, Frank Lindsay killed

15:07 Speaker 1: his wife and ran off with a couple of eleven

15:09 Speaker 1: year olds. It's like, well, of course he did, and

15:11 Speaker 1: then a man named William Sanborn tracked him down. I mean,

15:14 Speaker 1: there's some these old fashioned names are just kind of

15:16 Speaker 1: evocative and make everyone sound capable of either good or

15:22 Speaker 1: extremely ill. But I don't know. These are the strange

15:25 Speaker 1: paths that my mind tends to wander down.

15:29 Speaker 2: Are you saying that from I mean the perspective of

15:32 Speaker 2: Zeven or Anson might make those names sound old fashioned.

15:36 Speaker 2: The yes, you can hear those names in modern times.

15:42 Speaker 1: I mean with with with no offense to either of us.

15:46 Speaker 1: Zevin and Anson don't strike me as a couple of

15:50 Speaker 1: guys that would be particularly excellent at murder, kidnapping children,

15:55 Speaker 1: or you know, tracking down killers. I don't know, perhaps

15:59 Speaker 1: perhaps we would, right, yes, exactly, oh man. So for

16:05 Speaker 1: the first few months that Frank Lindsay was on the run,

16:07 Speaker 1: he'd worked as a fry cook at a restaurant that

16:09 Speaker 1: Sanborne managed on Vermont in Los Angeles. Not the state

16:14 Speaker 1: of Vermont, but the street of Vermont. Now, when Frank

16:17 Speaker 1: left that job, William lost track of him. Now here's

16:20 Speaker 1: something that I have in common with William Sanborn. Sandborne,

16:24 Speaker 1: like myself, was a huge fan of the true detective magazines,

16:29 Speaker 1: and anyone who listens to this show knows that I'm

16:32 Speaker 1: a huge fan of the old true detective magazines from

16:35 Speaker 1: the twenties and thirties because I found some wonderful stories there.

16:38 Speaker 1: Sandborne he used to consume these religiously, and in one

16:42 Speaker 1: of them he read a lurid tale about the grizzly

16:45 Speaker 1: murder of none other than a Seattle housewife. And in

16:48 Speaker 1: the same magazine he found a description of the missing

16:51 Speaker 1: husband who was being sought for the killing, and he

16:54 Speaker 1: immediately suspected that the wanted man was none other than

16:57 Speaker 1: his former cook. Really, yeah, right, So I love that

17:02 Speaker 1: you just told that story about being in the Chinese

17:05 Speaker 1: restaurant in Seattle and how there was this weird, coincidental

17:11 Speaker 1: occurrence that you experienced. Because here, right here, and again

17:14 Speaker 1: it's about a short order cook. We have exactly the

17:17 Speaker 1: same thing happening also in real life. I almost said

17:19 Speaker 1: in real life, but of course your life is also

17:22 Speaker 1: real said that. Yeah, do you feel validated?

17:27 Speaker 2: You? Yeah, it helps me. It helps me feel less

17:30 Speaker 2: like I'm in the matrix.

17:31 Speaker 1: All right, So, yeah, could you believe it. He went

17:34 Speaker 1: and he got a job working at a restaurant on

17:37 Speaker 1: Vermont Street in Los Angeles, and his boss just happened

17:41 Speaker 1: to be a true crime nut like those of us

17:43 Speaker 1: talking and hope most people listening, I imagine, who just

17:47 Speaker 1: happened to read his favorite magazine and realized that he

17:51 Speaker 1: had been employing the wife killer that the country was

17:54 Speaker 1: looking for. I believe back in those days they used

17:57 Speaker 1: to often refer to wife killers as bluebeers. A little

18:00 Speaker 1: factoid there, because of the wives that the famous pirate

18:04 Speaker 1: Bluebeard murdered during his tenure as an asshole.

18:08 Speaker 2: Not because most of the wives were blue hairs.

18:11 Speaker 1: Ah, maybe I don't have the I don't have the

18:14 Speaker 1: knowledge to answer that question, but uh so, maybe he

18:17 Speaker 1: would shave their heads and glue the blue hair to

18:20 Speaker 1: his chin? Is that why they call it?

18:22 Speaker 2: I like yours.

18:27 Speaker 1: So here we have this crazy coincidence. Just happened to

18:30 Speaker 1: get hired by the true crime nott who realized who

18:32 Speaker 1: he was. But he'd already left the job, and so

18:35 Speaker 1: William Sanborn didn't know what had become of this murderer

18:38 Speaker 1: on the lamb. But then again, by chance, William bumped

18:42 Speaker 1: into Frank at another restaurant, still on Vermont, where the

18:46 Speaker 1: absconder was again employed as a fry cook man. I

18:50 Speaker 1: have to assume that he was on foot all the

18:53 Speaker 1: time or just inveterately lazy. But when he decided to

18:57 Speaker 1: flee one job, to make sure that he stayed unders covered,

19:00 Speaker 1: he went as far as walking a few feet down

19:03 Speaker 1: in the street before taking another job.

19:07 Speaker 2: It's about the address, yeah exactly, it's wow.

19:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all about the convenience of traveling on foot.

19:14 Speaker 1: So here he goes, and he runs into the same guy,

19:17 Speaker 1: this man, Franklins r Killer, who he suspects of being

19:22 Speaker 1: the Seattle wife killer that the whole country's looking for.

19:25 Speaker 1: And when he sees him the second time, it really

19:28 Speaker 1: captures his imagination. He's fueled by the exploits of the

19:31 Speaker 1: detectives that he idolized in his beloved magazines, and he

19:34 Speaker 1: vows that he will He's going to He's not going

19:37 Speaker 1: to let the police know about this. He's going to

19:40 Speaker 1: apprehend the killer on his own.

19:43 Speaker 2: Sounds like Hannibal, you know the movie Hannibal.

19:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, it does. It also sounds like a

19:49 Speaker 1: highly questionable decision. I mean, I was I was criticizing

19:53 Speaker 1: Frank Lindsay's decision making earlier, I now have to look

19:57 Speaker 1: askance at our good guy as well. But he does.

20:01 Speaker 1: He decides I'm going to do this myself. In his

20:04 Speaker 1: past conversations with Lindsay, when Lindsay was the cook at

20:07 Speaker 1: his restaurant, Sandborn had learned that Frank was a jack

20:10 Speaker 1: of all trades. He was not only a cook, he

20:12 Speaker 1: was also an accomplished plumber, and so he told him

20:15 Speaker 1: that he needed some work done at his home, and

20:17 Speaker 1: he sweetened the offer by offering to pay him under

20:19 Speaker 1: the table. We know one thing for sure about William Sanborn.

20:23 Speaker 1: He had balls of brass. He says, you know what

20:26 Speaker 1: I'm going to do. I'm not only going to capture

20:29 Speaker 1: this murderer on my own, but before I capture him,

20:32 Speaker 1: I'm going to make sure that he knows exactly where

20:35 Speaker 1: I live. That seems also smart.

20:39 Speaker 2: Look, he's just freshening the pot. I dig it. He's

20:41 Speaker 2: like giving himself some handicaps.

20:44 Speaker 1: Right, He's like, this is too easy.

20:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, Now we'll see if I get this done right here. Yeah.

20:50 Speaker 1: So so he offers him the plumbing job, and Lindsay

20:53 Speaker 1: takes him up on it. He doesn't mind getting a

20:56 Speaker 1: handful of cash for cleaning another man's pipes and a

21:02 Speaker 1: man also that was also just a terrible, the highly

21:06 Speaker 1: inappropriate version of a dad joke. So you know, William

21:10 Speaker 1: Sanborn is not only a thrill seeking attention addict. Sometimes

21:16 Speaker 1: the words that I want to use just don't enter

21:18 Speaker 1: my mind in time, and so I use others. But

21:20 Speaker 1: he's also an He's also an upstanding citizen and as

21:27 Speaker 1: we know, a detective wanna be and he wants to

21:29 Speaker 1: make sure that he's pursuing the right man. He calls

21:32 Speaker 1: the police and he says, I think I might know

21:34 Speaker 1: where this guy is. But he doesn't say he's in

21:37 Speaker 1: my house up to his elbows and muck right now.

21:40 Speaker 1: He says, I think I might know where this guy is.

21:42 Speaker 1: Can I come down to the station and talk to

21:44 Speaker 1: you about it? And they say sure. And then when

21:47 Speaker 1: he gets to the station, they hand him a photo

21:49 Speaker 1: of Frank Lindsay and he immediately identifies it as Yes,

21:52 Speaker 1: this is him, this is my former employee, the guy

21:54 Speaker 1: who's doing work in my home right now. In a

21:58 Speaker 1: move that could be described as sort of dangerous at

22:02 Speaker 1: best and completely insane at worst, and we've already sort

22:06 Speaker 1: of hinted that Sandborn's a bit of an adrenaline junkie,

22:09 Speaker 1: and telling the killer where you live is a questionable choice.

22:13 Speaker 1: Sandborn goes and he confronts Frank with the photo at

22:19 Speaker 1: later at the other restaurant while Frank is working. So

22:23 Speaker 1: Frank then takes the picture from him and holds it

22:26 Speaker 1: in his fingers to look at it to be like, hmm,

22:28 Speaker 1: is this me? I'm not sure. By doing so, he

22:30 Speaker 1: conveniently fingerprints himself. When the cops run the Princes, they

22:34 Speaker 1: match it to the runaway murderer, and they yeah, everything's

22:38 Speaker 1: falling into place, an episode of law and order. Really,

22:40 Speaker 1: I mean, if it weren't all true, it would seem

22:42 Speaker 1: awfully convenient. So detectives then turn up at the Stanley

22:45 Speaker 1: Apartments at two ten South Flower Street later that evening,

22:48 Speaker 1: and they take Lindsay into custody without incident. Underwhelming into

22:52 Speaker 1: the story. If that were the end, I know better. Yeah,

22:57 Speaker 1: there's more, there's more, a break no, okay again, In

23:02 Speaker 1: a somewhat unsurprising development, there were many facts about Frank

23:07 Speaker 1: that he hadn't been forthcoming with. For example, his real name,

23:11 Speaker 1: which it was discovered was actually Charles E. Murphy, as

23:14 Speaker 1: well as his place of birth, which was not Massachusetts

23:17 Speaker 1: as he'd claimed, but rather somewhere in the UK. But

23:20 Speaker 1: you have to give the devil his due, because he

23:22 Speaker 1: was at least truthful about having served in both the

23:24 Speaker 1: British and US armed forces. However, he neglected to mention

23:28 Speaker 1: that he'd actually deserted from both services, and if those

23:32 Speaker 1: weren't enough lies, it was also uncovered that Frank was

23:35 Speaker 1: already married when he met and married Audrey, so the

23:39 Speaker 1: wife he murdered was not in fact his legal wife.

23:42 Speaker 1: He was something else. He was a fly by night

23:46 Speaker 1: polygamist of sorts. So Frank's story about why he killed

23:50 Speaker 1: his wife was that she just nagged him so incessantly

23:55 Speaker 1: that he finally lost it and felt compelled to spontaneously

23:59 Speaker 1: murder her. Now, I don't know if he thought that

24:01 Speaker 1: that version of the story would make him somehow sympathetic,

24:05 Speaker 1: like detectives are going to be like, oh, yeah, of course,

24:07 Speaker 1: I mean, my wife nags me too, I want to

24:10 Speaker 1: murder her all the time. I mean, if you're going

24:12 Speaker 1: to come up with a reason to kill your spouse,

24:15 Speaker 1: telling the cops, well, she nagged me a bunch. I

24:17 Speaker 1: don't think that makes you look any better. I mean,

24:20 Speaker 1: but you know that's just me, I guess. But so basically,

24:24 Speaker 1: because he had been caught in so many other lies,

24:27 Speaker 1: the police didn't really buy his version, and they also

24:32 Speaker 1: didn't buy his subsequent version of the murder, not just

24:36 Speaker 1: because he changed his story, but apparently because he was

24:39 Speaker 1: such a liar. And his other version was that he was,

24:43 Speaker 1: of course not the attacker, but instead valiantly defending himself

24:46 Speaker 1: from certain death at the hands of his crazy wife.

24:51 Speaker 1: This guy was just a shameless, shameless prevaricator, although I

24:55 Speaker 1: suppose that was the least of his flaws. Of course,

24:58 Speaker 1: they don't buy these other versions of the attack because

25:01 Speaker 1: he's a liar. They also don't buy it because they're

25:04 Speaker 1: able to determine and I'm not sure exactly how, but

25:07 Speaker 1: I guess through forensics, but somehow they're able to determine

25:11 Speaker 1: that he had pre dug the grave into which he

25:16 Speaker 1: dumped Audrey's corpse prior to killing her. They're like, yeah,

25:19 Speaker 1: you were she nagged you till you snapped, and or

25:23 Speaker 1: you were defending yourself from being murdered at the hands

25:26 Speaker 1: of your wife. So why then did you dig a

25:29 Speaker 1: grave before all that happened? And nobody really believed that

25:33 Speaker 1: it was just another one of those coincidences like you

25:36 Speaker 1: had with the pager, or Frank had getting hired by

25:40 Speaker 1: a true crime net.

25:42 Speaker 2: They didn't believe that maybe she dug the grave for

25:44 Speaker 2: him and he just did a little switch around.

25:47 Speaker 1: I guess, I guess they didn't. That may have just

25:50 Speaker 1: been sex That may have just been sexism on their part, though,

25:53 Speaker 1: I mean, perhaps perhaps she did.

25:55 Speaker 2: So.

25:56 Speaker 1: It took him a while, but the police finally untangled

25:58 Speaker 1: Frank's web of life, and this is where the tone

26:03 Speaker 1: of the story gets much more grave and serious than

26:06 Speaker 1: it perhaps has been so far. Of course, wife murder

26:10 Speaker 1: is grave and serious, but it's about to get worse, folks.

26:13 Speaker 1: They basically they conclude that the fight with his wife,

26:17 Speaker 1: Audrey that had culminated in his murder of her, happened

26:21 Speaker 1: because she had accused him of criminal assault on several

26:25 Speaker 1: young girls in the Seattle area, including attacks on their

26:30 Speaker 1: foster daughters, and that she had threatened to turn him

26:33 Speaker 1: in and that's when he snapped and murdered her. So

26:37 Speaker 1: that is pretty horrible. I think we can all read

26:40 Speaker 1: between the lines there.

26:42 Speaker 2: Kudos to the police for getting that confession.

26:44 Speaker 1: Though, yeah yeah, yeah, and the week that he spent

26:47 Speaker 1: at the boarding house in Bunker Hill gets a whole

26:50 Speaker 1: hell of a lot darker. Of course. The one thing

26:52 Speaker 1: I will say that I am a little bit surprised

26:55 Speaker 1: by is that given that he a let both of

26:59 Speaker 1: those girls go oh and one of them basically took

27:02 Speaker 1: the bus back to her parents and was able to

27:05 Speaker 1: provide police information about Lindsey, it's surprising that this didn't

27:10 Speaker 1: come out sooner, that the girl wouldn't have told somebody

27:15 Speaker 1: that this was an awful man, etc. But I said,

27:19 Speaker 1: may perhaps she was ashamed, or I mean, we don't

27:21 Speaker 1: know the details of what he did or what kind

27:23 Speaker 1: of attacks his wife was talking about. I'm just sort

27:26 Speaker 1: of surmising that they were likely the sort that we

27:29 Speaker 1: would all fear the most. But did that didn't come

27:33 Speaker 1: out until later? Maybe it took Beatrice's parents a while

27:37 Speaker 1: to tell that the cops. So this absolute piece of

27:40 Speaker 1: shit Frank was shackled and extradited from Los Angeles back

27:44 Speaker 1: to Washington, where he was tried and convicted for his

27:48 Speaker 1: wife's murder and sentenced to sixty five years in Walla

27:52 Speaker 1: Walla prison. Justice prevails to an extent. Sixty five years

27:56 Speaker 1: seems like an awfully long time. It's likely to be

27:59 Speaker 1: the remain of his natural life, especially in nineteen thirty. However,

28:03 Speaker 1: story is still not finished. It's like an m Night

28:07 Speaker 1: Shyamalan movie, one twist after another. So you'd think that

28:12 Speaker 1: the sounds of those prison gates slamming shut and Walla

28:14 Speaker 1: Walla would have been the end of the story. You'd

28:17 Speaker 1: think that. But old Frank Lindsay, well alias Frank Lindsay.

28:21 Speaker 1: Did we ever find out what his real name was? Oh?

28:23 Speaker 1: That's right, Charles E. Murphy. He makes news again in

28:26 Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven. So he was in his best behavior

28:29 Speaker 1: for those seventeen sixteen years that he's spent in prison,

28:33 Speaker 1: and he eventually earned trustee privileges. So by January of

28:36 Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven, he was working you guessed it as

28:39 Speaker 1: a cook in the warden's home. Cush, Yeah, I'll say,

28:45 Speaker 1: especially because he's literally not on prison grounds. So one

28:50 Speaker 1: day he simply walks away from the prison and vanishes.

28:54 Speaker 1: He's on the run for most of a year, and

28:57 Speaker 1: he's finally captured in Denver colerad. Guess what he's doing

29:01 Speaker 1: when they find him. Not something awful, not cooking fries.

29:05 Speaker 1: You got it. He was working at a restaurant, plying

29:09 Speaker 1: his usual culinary trade. I guess no one had really

29:12 Speaker 1: taught Frank Lindsay about I don't know m modus operandi. Like,

29:19 Speaker 1: when they come looking for you, the first thing they're

29:21 Speaker 1: probably gonna do is look for recently arrived diner fry cooks.

29:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if they are aware that that's his go

29:29 Speaker 2: to job title.

29:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Well, and at this point they would have

29:34 Speaker 1: to be because he was functionally caught by the manager

29:37 Speaker 1: of one restaurant that he worked at and entrapped and

29:41 Speaker 1: gives up his fingerprints at another restaurant he worked at,

29:44 Speaker 1: so certainly they knew it was his go too after

29:47 Speaker 1: this unsuccessful I think unsuccessful was a little harsh. He

29:50 Speaker 1: was out for almost a year. Let's call it semi

29:52 Speaker 1: successful escape from prison. Although isn't it a successful escape

29:56 Speaker 1: if you just make it outside of the compound? Likew

30:00 Speaker 1: how long do you have to be escaped? Do you

30:02 Speaker 1: have to be escaped forever for it to be a

30:04 Speaker 1: successful escape? I feel like as soon as you're on

30:06 Speaker 1: the other side of those gates you've escaped.

30:08 Speaker 2: I think the harder it is for them to find you,

30:11 Speaker 2: the more successful they escape. I mean, going from wall

30:13 Speaker 2: Walla to Denver pretty far. You'd think he should have

30:17 Speaker 2: been in the clear, but just staying visible doesn't do

30:21 Speaker 2: him any good. Yeah.

30:22 Speaker 1: No, So basically what you're telling me is no, you

30:25 Speaker 1: want you want the full shashank. You want to In

30:29 Speaker 1: other words, not not that you want that for Frank Lindsay,

30:32 Speaker 1: but in your mind, a truly successful prison escape results

30:36 Speaker 1: in permanent freedom.

30:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. The ones that don't make you know, they don't

30:40 Speaker 2: make stories about, are probably the ones that are the

30:43 Speaker 2: most successful. You know. It's like you, if you know

30:46 Speaker 2: a ninja, you probably don't know a ninja, right right, right?

30:50 Speaker 1: Yeah. People that tell you how great they are tend

30:54 Speaker 1: to not be that great.

30:55 Speaker 2: Is it?

30:56 Speaker 1: Pretty pretty safe assumption like that.

30:59 Speaker 2: It's like if you run around telling people you're invisible,

31:02 Speaker 2: you're probably not right.

31:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you can't see me? Sure about that?

31:07 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a classic.

31:09 Speaker 1: All right. So I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say it's

31:11 Speaker 1: a successful prison escape if you're free at least until

31:15 Speaker 1: your next crime. Unrelated to the escape. That's that's the

31:20 Speaker 1: caveat I'm going to offer on that one. But after

31:22 Speaker 1: his I guess unsuccessful escape from prison, Frank would then

31:26 Speaker 1: disappear from the newspapers entirely, so for our purposes, that is,

31:31 Speaker 1: after two fake endings, we've now reached the end at

31:35 Speaker 1: least in pop culture awareness of the story of the

31:38 Speaker 1: fry Cook Killer one Frank Lindsay and or Charles E. Murphy.

31:44 Speaker 1: There you go. That is a kind of murdery story

31:47 Speaker 1: that began and in some sense finished in the city

31:50 Speaker 1: of Seattle or the state of Washington at the very

31:53 Speaker 1: least certainly began in Seattle, finished in the prison in Walla, Walla.

31:56 Speaker 1: Using Seattle as the narrative link, I'm now going to

32:00 Speaker 1: turn it over to Anson. Anson. You're going to tell

32:02 Speaker 1: us a kind of murdery story from your own life

32:05 Speaker 1: that took place in Seattle.

32:07 Speaker 2: Yes, sure, yeah, awesome. So around the time that Mark

32:12 Speaker 2: siden and I were both kind of working together every

32:15 Speaker 2: day doing work for the first.

32:18 Speaker 1: Cards for Magic, you are drawing the cards for limited

32:22 Speaker 1: Edition Alpha, which would be ninety two ninety three.

32:27 Speaker 2: I think this was in ninety two. That makes sense that, yeah,

32:30 Speaker 2: it would have to be. So we're on Capitol Hill

32:33 Speaker 2: in Seattle. We're both living on Broadway and just a

32:37 Speaker 2: few blocks apart, and you know, kind of small apartments.

32:41 Speaker 2: And so we would spend most of our work day

32:44 Speaker 2: by going to a coffee shop and what we call

32:47 Speaker 2: pain rent, just getting some coffee. Just keep getting coffee

32:51 Speaker 2: while you're sitting there, and we would work, you know,

32:53 Speaker 2: at the tables there.

32:55 Speaker 1: And so is this the time that you were talking

32:59 Speaker 1: about on an early your episode where you were watching

33:01 Speaker 1: Mark draw Lord of the Pit and kind of like going, whoa,

33:05 Speaker 1: that looks good awesome?

33:07 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't remember exactly when this was, so

33:09 Speaker 2: it could have been could have been the same day.

33:11 Speaker 1: For all I know, but that's a pretty good surrogate

33:14 Speaker 1: for what was happening at this time. You guys were

33:17 Speaker 1: just sitting there getting cranked off your asses on jitter beans,

33:20 Speaker 1: just drawing some of the most iconic art ever seen.

33:25 Speaker 2: I mean, we did. We worked a lot most of

33:29 Speaker 2: the day every day, and we would try to be social.

33:33 Speaker 2: You know, at night we'd go to you know, we

33:35 Speaker 2: go downtown First Avenue in downtown Seattle and you know,

33:39 Speaker 2: have some beer and people watch talk to people. But

33:44 Speaker 2: there was one night when we were walking from Capitol

33:47 Speaker 2: Hill down to First Avenue, which is, you know, more

33:50 Speaker 2: realistically a cab ride, but we walk.

33:52 Speaker 1: Well, you just spent eight ten hours drinking coffee. You

33:55 Speaker 1: better go for a walk, right, you're vibrating like a

33:59 Speaker 1: teacutu chiwawah, you're just yeah.

34:03 Speaker 2: I'm gonna use street names because people if anybody's listening

34:07 Speaker 2: to this and know Seattle, then they'll be able to

34:08 Speaker 2: relate to it. Sure, But we were walking down Denny

34:13 Speaker 2: Way as it crosses over I five and on this

34:17 Speaker 2: overpass overpass, if it's just a bridge for two lanes,

34:22 Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. All right. So

34:26 Speaker 2: we're walking down the left side where the sidewalk is

34:29 Speaker 2: and we could see the lights on an ambulance. We

34:33 Speaker 2: see an ambulance, you know, parked next to the sidewalk.

34:37 Speaker 1: We're on something you just happened, yes.

34:40 Speaker 2: Right, right, So it's you know, it's in the right lane,

34:43 Speaker 2: and it's you know, it's lights are pointing up towards us,

34:46 Speaker 2: and we're curious to see what's going on because you know,

34:49 Speaker 2: it's an ambulance. And as we get closer, we see

34:52 Speaker 2: that on the sidewalk in our path is a white sheet,

34:56 Speaker 2: you know, and we both you know, stopped talking about

35:00 Speaker 2: what we were talking about, and we're just like silently

35:03 Speaker 2: trying to figure out what's going on. And we approach

35:07 Speaker 2: the sheet and we see that it is a body,

35:10 Speaker 2: but it's completely covered except for the shoes. There were

35:14 Speaker 2: new looking, you know, like basketball.

35:17 Speaker 1: Shoes, right, like maybe some Jordan ones or something. Those

35:21 Speaker 1: shoes are probably worth a lot of nineteen ninety two. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, please, But.

35:28 Speaker 2: I remember the laces were pristine and they were tied neatly,

35:32 Speaker 2: you know, And I mean it's those kind of kinds

35:36 Speaker 2: of things that you're probably going to notice when you

35:38 Speaker 2: see something shocking, because I mean that's all we could

35:41 Speaker 2: see was the shape of the body. That we didn't

35:43 Speaker 2: see any blood, and saw these clean shoes sticking out,

35:47 Speaker 2: and I was thinking, the guy tied his laces for

35:50 Speaker 2: the last time. It's really a strange thought that everybody's

35:53 Speaker 2: going to do that if they lacer shoes. But what

35:56 Speaker 2: was really strange was there was nobody else around, even

36:00 Speaker 2: with the ambulance there and the lights on. I mean,

36:02 Speaker 2: you know, the back doors were open. We could see

36:04 Speaker 2: that there's nobody in there.

36:05 Speaker 1: There's no cops, and it's not like they were across

36:08 Speaker 1: the street from a morg or a hospital. This was

36:10 Speaker 1: just a spot on the street.

36:13 Speaker 2: Right right, and it's on the over So as we

36:15 Speaker 2: walked by it, Mark says, as a dead body, I said, yep,

36:20 Speaker 2: And we just kept We didn't stop and gawk or anything.

36:23 Speaker 2: We just walked on by it and it were quiet

36:25 Speaker 2: for a little while after that. But yeah, so we

36:29 Speaker 2: looked at the papers, you know, after that night.

36:32 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question before you before you

36:34 Speaker 1: reveal what you found out in reality, what I was

36:36 Speaker 1: wondering one of my favorite pastimes still, and it annoys

36:40 Speaker 1: the hell out of my wife, and it annoys the

36:41 Speaker 1: hell out of a lot of people because now Google exists,

36:45 Speaker 1: but he's just supposing not knowing the answer to something

36:49 Speaker 1: and just trying to use my imagination to connect the

36:53 Speaker 1: one dot I have to the rest of the dots

36:55 Speaker 1: I don't and come up with something that sounds plausible

36:58 Speaker 1: to me as to what the heck's going on. And

37:00 Speaker 1: you know, someone will asked me, what's the yearly rainfall

37:02 Speaker 1: on the Amazon rainforest? And I have absolutely no clue,

37:05 Speaker 1: and I'm just the sort of overly confident ahole that'll

37:08 Speaker 1: be like, I don't know, but I bet it's about

37:10 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty inches based on nothing. So where

37:12 Speaker 1: I'm going with this is, did you and Mark, before

37:15 Speaker 1: you found out what had happened, did you that night

37:18 Speaker 1: or subsequently spend any time just kind of imagining trying

37:22 Speaker 1: to figure out what the heck was going on there,

37:24 Speaker 1: particularly with the fact that the body had been, as

37:27 Speaker 1: far as you knew, abandoned by the authorities.

37:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking that maybe the police were there

37:35 Speaker 2: and they took off to go, you know, see if

37:37 Speaker 2: they could track down who might have done it there

37:40 Speaker 2: being no paramedics was really baffling that they would just

37:43 Speaker 2: leave the vehicle there and the body, and it.

37:48 Speaker 1: Just it was exactly you could imagine that the police

37:51 Speaker 1: get a call for a shootout at a bank and

37:53 Speaker 1: they're like, well, this guy's already dead, we better go

37:55 Speaker 1: try to deal with that. And then the paramedics get

37:57 Speaker 1: a call for somebody having a heart attack at a

37:58 Speaker 1: high school and they go, we got to go help

38:00 Speaker 1: that person, okay, But then, as you just alluded to,

38:03 Speaker 1: the ambulance would not be there. This is an abandoned

38:06 Speaker 1: open ambulance, probably full of like syringes of adrenaline and

38:10 Speaker 1: all kinds of other fun drugs that you don't necessarily

38:13 Speaker 1: want to leave on the street, and they've just left

38:16 Speaker 1: it along with a expired human. It's baffling, baffling.

38:20 Speaker 2: Right, And maybe you know, we didn't know what the

38:22 Speaker 2: nature of, you know, the mishap was, and maybe it

38:27 Speaker 2: involved paramedics. You know, maybe somebody, maybe somebody who was

38:32 Speaker 2: you know, wielding a gun, you know, shot one of

38:34 Speaker 2: the paramedics. Maybe interesting, or maybe the paramedics saw something

38:38 Speaker 2: and they agreed to try to identify a suspect that

38:43 Speaker 2: you know, the police had pinned somewhere else.

38:45 Speaker 1: And it just or they screwed up and killed the

38:48 Speaker 1: guy and just were like, fuck, we gotta get out

38:51 Speaker 1: of here. Another thing that occurs to me, and I

38:57 Speaker 1: don't mean to be ageist or anything, but I feel like,

39:01 Speaker 1: as an amateur sleuth, it is likely that if this

39:04 Speaker 1: expired person had pristine basketball shoes perfectly laced up, they

39:09 Speaker 1: were probably a young person. Sadly, I mean, it's unlikely

39:13 Speaker 1: they were like somebody who would had died of old

39:15 Speaker 1: age just wearing clean basketball shoes. They're probably on the

39:19 Speaker 1: younger side, right.

39:20 Speaker 2: And what's sad about it is that it turns out

39:24 Speaker 2: that what we read in the paper, you know, a

39:26 Speaker 2: couple of days later, was that somebody on Denny stopped

39:31 Speaker 2: because he saw a man and a woman and the

39:35 Speaker 2: man was kind of roughen up the woman. He evidently

39:41 Speaker 2: stops to try to break it up, and the guy

39:45 Speaker 2: pulled out a gun and shot him. Oh geez, and

39:48 Speaker 2: then they then the man and the woman took off

39:51 Speaker 2: and were apprehended later. But it reminded me a little

39:55 Speaker 2: bit of myself and that I really have a real

39:59 Speaker 2: hard time staying out of an abusive situation like that,

40:04 Speaker 2: where somebody who is, you know, being overpowered by somebody

40:08 Speaker 2: else who doesn't need to be hitting them. You just

40:11 Speaker 2: walk away.

40:11 Speaker 1: So you're you're a good person, You've got that hero gene.

40:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well I don't know, but I was just thinking

40:17 Speaker 2: that's a good way to get yourself killed if you

40:19 Speaker 2: don't know your situation well enough.

40:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I like to think that I well,

40:24 Speaker 1: I think I would have done the same thing that

40:26 Speaker 1: that guy did and probably gotten shot for it.

40:29 Speaker 2: It doesn't always boil down to actually making a decision.

40:33 Speaker 2: Sometimes you just react to something because there's a spontaneous,

40:37 Speaker 2: you know, trigger in you that that goes off and

40:39 Speaker 2: makes you act right and you can and you realize

40:43 Speaker 2: after the fact that you don't even remember making any decisions.

40:46 Speaker 2: You just were kind of on along for the riode.

40:48 Speaker 1: Right right, No, that's for sure. And you know somebody

40:52 Speaker 1: who's likely to make that decision. Then if they if

40:55 Speaker 1: they thought it through and they did nothing because they

40:58 Speaker 1: were like, oh boy, I might get shot, then you

41:00 Speaker 1: have to live with that too, because you don't know

41:03 Speaker 1: you're going to get shot. And then you have to

41:05 Speaker 1: live with your own sort of cowardice having felt like

41:08 Speaker 1: you should help a person who was victimized and choosing

41:12 Speaker 1: not to because of the possibility of being harmed yourself. Right, man,

41:17 Speaker 1: that's a rough. One summer after my sophomore year in college,

41:21 Speaker 1: I got my teeth, my two front teeth punched out.

41:25 Speaker 1: What had happened was I was sort of stupidly one

41:28 Speaker 1: of the older people at a high school party that

41:31 Speaker 1: my friend's younger brother was throwing, and my friend said,

41:34 Speaker 1: you want to come kind of keep an eye on

41:35 Speaker 1: these high school kids. Which public service announcement if you

41:39 Speaker 1: are over twenty one. Do not babysit high school kids

41:42 Speaker 1: doing illegal things. Just say no. So anyway, there was

41:46 Speaker 1: a rivalry at this particular high school between the football

41:50 Speaker 1: team and the soccer team, and what it boiled down

41:54 Speaker 1: to was the soccer kids were all from educated, professional

41:58 Speaker 1: families with money, and the football kids were from the

42:02 Speaker 1: opposite of that and lived in like a poorer part

42:05 Speaker 1: of town, and they hated each other. There was a

42:07 Speaker 1: particularly abusive football player who was hated by the whole

42:11 Speaker 1: soccer team, and he was denied injury tooth party. And

42:15 Speaker 1: the upshot of that he showed up around ten we

42:17 Speaker 1: we didn't let him in. The upshot of that was

42:19 Speaker 1: he came back at about four in the morning with friends.

42:22 Speaker 1: They busted into the house and I walked out of

42:25 Speaker 1: a bedroom to see these guys throw a punch at

42:28 Speaker 1: my friend's little brother. Now, the bad guys, as it were,

42:31 Speaker 1: were greatly outnumbered, but they also had a reputation for

42:35 Speaker 1: being real ass kickers. So essentially, the whole soccer team

42:38 Speaker 1: was cowering in fear while three football players were starting

42:42 Speaker 1: to beat on people. So I saw him throw a

42:44 Speaker 1: punch at my friend's little brother. And I ran up

42:47 Speaker 1: and I separated them, and I was just like, guys, guys,

42:49 Speaker 1: come on, don't let's not do this, because you know, sure,

42:51 Speaker 1: I'm twenty two, but in my mind these are little

42:53 Speaker 1: These are like little kids, these seventeen year olds. Of

42:56 Speaker 1: course they're not physically little kids, and so I'm just

42:59 Speaker 1: trying to hold apart. I'm not fighting anybody, and the

43:01 Speaker 1: football player starts. I had kind of longish hair at

43:04 Speaker 1: the time. He goes. He starts yelling at me, you

43:06 Speaker 1: dirty hippie, you crazy liberal, and then he steps forward

43:11 Speaker 1: and he just punched me right in the mouth. I

43:13 Speaker 1: looked down and I saw, like the basically the entirety

43:16 Speaker 1: of my two front teeth in a puddle of blood

43:19 Speaker 1: on the ground. I could say, I could proudly say

43:21 Speaker 1: that I didn't. I didn't like, didn't go down or anything.

43:24 Speaker 1: And I was an acting major in college, so my

43:26 Speaker 1: first thought was just I didn't care about revenge. I

43:29 Speaker 1: looked down and I saw my teeth, and I was like,

43:31 Speaker 1: how am I supposed to act with no teeth? So

43:34 Speaker 1: my entire priority became, Oh, I'm gonna somehow have a

43:37 Speaker 1: dentist reattach my teeth like right now at four am.

43:41 Speaker 1: But long story short, I at least tell myself getting

43:45 Speaker 1: that all repaired dental work is still basically medieval. It

43:49 Speaker 1: hasn't advanced a whole lot. It's horrible, it's horrible, horrible.

43:52 Speaker 1: Please don't get your teeth knocked out anyone. But I

43:56 Speaker 1: like to tell myself that I'm glad it happened because

44:01 Speaker 1: what I discovered was that I'm not a coward. Like

44:05 Speaker 1: I'm glad that my impulse was to step up and

44:09 Speaker 1: defend my friend's little brother. With all the knowledge I

44:12 Speaker 1: have of hindsight and everything I had to go through

44:15 Speaker 1: getting my teeth fixed, I probably would have let the

44:17 Speaker 1: guy kick his ass. But my impulse was otherwise.

44:23 Speaker 2: I think what you're saying is he took one for

44:26 Speaker 2: the team.

44:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, and by the.

44:28 Speaker 2: Way he escalated the situation.

44:30 Speaker 1: Well, what happened was as soon as my teeth were

44:32 Speaker 1: on the floor, the soccer team just realized that they

44:36 Speaker 1: outnumbered the bullies like fifteen to three and ejected them

44:40 Speaker 1: from the house. But that was sort of the inciting

44:43 Speaker 1: incident for everyone else discovering their spines, so to speak.

44:48 Speaker 2: It's climactic and blood was involved, so maybe that was

44:51 Speaker 2: enough to satisfy them.

44:52 Speaker 1: Yeah, but hey, I also survived, unlike the poor person

44:57 Speaker 1: in your story.

44:59 Speaker 2: Yeah.

45:00 Speaker 1: Well that was a great story Anson. Thank you so

45:02 Speaker 1: much for sharing it.

45:04 Speaker 2: You're welcome, Thanks for helping me experience it all right.

45:08 Speaker 1: Well there are our Seattle based kind of murdery stories Anson.

45:12 Speaker 1: As always, thank you so much for being here with me.

45:14 Speaker 1: It's a joy to spend time with you. Thank you

45:17 Speaker 1: for Anson, Maddox. I'm seven Odleberg and this has been

45:22 Speaker 1: kind of murdery.